tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.comments2023-07-03T08:21:29.115-07:00Theology in WorshipJonathan Powershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04156698508552110185noreply@blogger.comBlogger115125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-13894430698378939162013-11-25T21:20:26.612-08:002013-11-25T21:20:26.612-08:00very nice and informative article. And thanks for ...very nice and informative article. And thanks for sharing this to us. I will look forward to your other posts.<br /><a href="http://www.soulscribbler.com/category/events/" rel="nofollow">spiritual insights</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05880775936524788389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-69784516338724351472013-02-05T07:21:23.509-08:002013-02-05T07:21:23.509-08:00Some confuse beauty with funeral homes...
Some confuse beauty with funeral homes...<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-6302919874495775312011-12-27T16:45:40.837-08:002011-12-27T16:45:40.837-08:00Where are the other 36 stanzas? Did you know that ...Where are the other 36 stanzas? Did you know that the Methodists sang this song to the tune of a local beer drinking song? It was very lively and enjoyable to hear. Not like the funeral hymns sung today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-83259349882513649542011-09-10T16:54:04.476-07:002011-09-10T16:54:04.476-07:00So well written...I enjoyed every sentence!! Look...So well written...I enjoyed every sentence!! Look forward to reading your future posts! Blessings~ alicealice alfredhttp://alicelynnalfred.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-45291182603567899442011-06-29T08:19:55.206-07:002011-06-29T08:19:55.206-07:00Jonathan, if you're gonna go that route, you a...Jonathan, if you're gonna go that route, you absolutely must read John Dickson's Humilitas: A Lost Key to Life, Love, and Leadership (Zondervan, 2011). It's absolutely fascinating! The theme of the book is how a Jew from Nazareth overturned the honor-shame paradigm of the ancient world. Because of one Jewish Carpenter, modesty and serving the poor are actually considered virtues instead of acts of denigration.<br /><br />-David Chism<br />davidchism.comDavid Chismhttp://davidchism.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-55146114691700251562011-05-03T18:20:20.524-07:002011-05-03T18:20:20.524-07:00Jeff - Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment....Jeff - Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment. I'd say there are degrees of celebration. Or at least, there are certain things that inform celebration and inform what we bring into our celebration. For instance, a service on Good Friday is a celebration, but in a different sense than a service on Easter. (Does that make sense?) <br /><br />Now, that example may not have anything to do with Osama bin Laden, (and in no way whatsoever do I equate his death with Christ's), but I do think we celebrate this victory with a real sense of lament accompanying it. If we do not, I believe we miss out on something. I think this is part of what has been troubling me these past few days. The "joy and jubilation" you speak of has been rampant for many, but I have found my sense of celebration has an element of lament to it. <br /><br />I'm still trying to figure out what God is teaching me and showing me through this. Thanks, Jeff, for being another guiding voice.Jonathan Powershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04156698508552110185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-17205543175485941652011-05-03T12:56:12.772-07:002011-05-03T12:56:12.772-07:00Are there degrees of celebration? Put differently,...Are there degrees of celebration? Put differently, shouldn't President Obama be pleased that the order was executed effectively and the plan was achieved? On some level, this could be called a celebration, but perhaps not in the way that many use the term. On the other hand, shouting for joy and jubilation is taking such a celebration to another level that I find troubling, as you have voiced here, Jonathan. Does that make sense?Jeff Rudyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15863699058853219072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-12562233970831561882011-05-03T07:18:37.914-07:002011-05-03T07:18:37.914-07:00Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Robin. I can und...Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Robin. I can understand and have considered thoughts from your perspective. However, I believe there is an important tension on this issue that must be held. <br /><br />You say, "If you found cancer in your body, you would rejoice when it was removed for good." This is true. Yet, when it comes at the cost of something living, (for example, take a mastectomy for the removal of breast cancer), though there is rejoicing at the removal, there is also grief at the cost. <br /><br />You also say, "Didn't Israel rejoice before God many times - and didn't God instruct them to - when they wiped out their enemies?" Certainly! There is much biblical evidence to support this. However, I don't believe God fully rejoiced in having to completely destroy part of his creation, even though it was for divinely appointed purposes. <br /><br />If you were to ask me a week ago, a year ago, or ten years ago if I thought the world would be better with Osama bin Laden dead, I would have said yes. In fact, I can't say I disagree with that even now. But I also refuse to let my heart or mind be blinded by hatred and vengeance. I cannot overlook the fact that he was a child of God just as any one else is. Yet, he was a person, as you say, "antithetical to Christianity," and my heart grieves for that. I celebrate this justice, but I do not celebrate that a man has been fully separated from God. <br /><br />Call me naive, but I refuse to not struggle with this. I believe God is teaching me important things about His heart for humanity, and what it means for my own actions in the world. (I cannot forget my neighbors who do not know Christ are destined to the same ultimate end as Osama bin Laden.) There is a formative aspect to this struggle, and it is one I did not expect to be having right now. <br /><br />Thank you for spurring this conversation, Robin! Blessings!Jonathan Powershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04156698508552110185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-38176423659998861972011-05-03T06:47:08.913-07:002011-05-03T06:47:08.913-07:00Sorry, I can't disagree more. While I truly ad...Sorry, I can't disagree more. While I truly admire your desire to honor God in this time of difficulty, Osama bin Laden wasn't another man whose death brings "closure." He was as close to evil incarnate as we see on earth. He killed innocent men, women, and children to advance a perverted theological agenda that couldn't possibly be any more antithetical to Christianity. If you found a cancer in your body, you would rejoice when it was removed for good. OBL was a malignancy on humanity, and his death is a cause for rejoicing. If Hitler had been killed early, and you could know that his death saved millions of lives, wouldn't you rejoice before God? Didn't Israel rejoice before God many times - and didn't God instruct them to - when they wiped out their enemies? I appreciate your heart in this, but I think your mind needs to see it from a different perspective.Robin Chalkleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09286182130971865644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-12613529531784174662011-05-03T06:03:25.326-07:002011-05-03T06:03:25.326-07:00humble. authentic. grace. beautiful.
thanks.humble. authentic. grace. beautiful. <br />thanks.Karl Krogerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08318473203031039240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-36686579922600547822011-05-02T17:59:31.714-07:002011-05-02T17:59:31.714-07:00http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/is-god-glad-...http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/is-god-glad-osama-bin-ladens-deadAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-85533461788497331712011-05-02T14:34:51.186-07:002011-05-02T14:34:51.186-07:00Thanks everyone! I really appreciate your comments...Thanks everyone! I really appreciate your comments. I hope you have also been able to read through some of the posts I recommended.Jonathan Powershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04156698508552110185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-78581741620152491162011-05-02T14:12:43.435-07:002011-05-02T14:12:43.435-07:00Jonathan, I love how in your processing, you respo...Jonathan, I love how in your processing, you responded with worship seeking deeper relationship with God through this event. You've inspired me, thanks.Rob Stillhttp://www.robstill.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-23912071347723295882011-05-02T11:20:30.935-07:002011-05-02T11:20:30.935-07:00Great post.
As a fellow (Catholic) Christian, I a...Great post. <br />As a fellow (Catholic) Christian, I also take comfort that we can turn to scripture in times like this. Isn't that such a great gift we have?<br /><br />It is interesting to think of what happened when he faced Jesus. Did he repent? Of course we are inclined to think that he is in hell, but there is a chance that he repented and was forgiven, which I know is a controversial statement. <br /><br />All in all, the reality of the situation is that our military was strategizing to kill bin Laden. And they did. Doesn't sit well, but that is war. What those brave soldiers did was heroic and changed history.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-68316459767420435612011-05-02T10:33:03.590-07:002011-05-02T10:33:03.590-07:00Glad to see others feel as I do.Glad to see others feel as I do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-72211960632464848352011-05-02T10:02:20.060-07:002011-05-02T10:02:20.060-07:00Good article Jonathan! I have had similar feelings...Good article Jonathan! I have had similar feelings since hearing the news last night...none of which have been joy. I feel more broken for the ways in which we embrace and endorse violence as a way of life rather than the kingdom-life of God. Thanks for sharing!steve lamottehttp://www.stevelamotte.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-59997765442115775642011-05-02T06:06:52.576-07:002011-05-02T06:06:52.576-07:00For further reading on this topic by people who ha...For further reading on this topic by people who have been helping me process this, I recommend the following blog posts:<br /><br />http://tombakerguitar.blogspot.com/2011/05/contradictions-held-in-tension.html<br /><br />http://sblosser.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/reacting-to-osama-bin-ladens-death/<br /><br />http://www.thepangeablog.com/2011/05/01/mourning-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden…-and-the-loss-of-every-other-life/Jonathan Powershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04156698508552110185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-87935428673994231642011-04-27T12:37:47.010-07:002011-04-27T12:37:47.010-07:00Amen, Rob! Thanks so much for the comments and for...Amen, Rob! Thanks so much for the comments and for reading! <br /><br />Chris - very well said! I really appreciate your reflections.Jonathan Powershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04156698508552110185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-28868162808115191232011-04-27T12:12:00.546-07:002011-04-27T12:12:00.546-07:00Hey Jonathan I'm really enjoying your blog. Lo...Hey Jonathan I'm really enjoying your blog. Love how you're wrestling with these very practical issues. Great conversation going on here.<br /><br />Re: catering to the 5%, I think you're right in that the church should and must be hospitable, welcoming, warm, friendly and loving to newcomers. This proclaims the gospel, imo. A simple welcome in a service would be appropriate.<br /><br />However, I think a specific purpose of worship is to transform the worshipers by taking focus off ourselves (or other people) and giving it to God.<br /><br />I can't imagine David and his worship team concerned in the slightest about the opinion of guests or any one else there in the tabernacle. Clearly he was most interested in the opinion of God Almighty.Rob Stillhttp://www.robstill.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-26958712820781988762011-04-27T10:14:57.953-07:002011-04-27T10:14:57.953-07:00"Our goal as worship leaders is to provide th..."Our goal as worship leaders is to provide the opportunity to help people connect and respond to the beauty and glory of God. I think the level of the worshiper becomes irrelevant as the glory of God is revealed. I cannot write a formula for how this is explicitly done. It will look different in each context."<br /><br />Beautifully said, Jonathan. I think this is what I was trying to sus out; your article, I think, benefits a lot from this perspective because it then takes us to each local context and asks the hard questions there. You'll notice the "" marks around "level" because I too think that it doesn't really mean much in the context of art; we all get something out of it if it's done well. The trouble is that seekers are a "level" as well, if you look at discipleship as bigger than just those-that-have-converted, and so the issue becomes how to incorporate the many into our worship planning, rather than the few. I think explaining regularly the "why" behind what we do helps seekers enter in the conversation, but also reminds the regulars why they're at the event, so long as we keep the explanation fresh and find new ways to articulate meaning so it doesn't become just another part of the service we "have" to do.<br /><br />What I struggle with most are questions of style, because calling us away from the seeker mentality still leaves us with big questions of what a service could look like. If we're no longer trying to be "culturally relevant" (to the extreme, anyway), a GREAT answer to the problem is to talk about cultural expression; we express our artistic worship of God (or our gatherings) in a way that is out of our communal culture rather than in response to culture; our culture generates and creates, rather than reacts. I think the "it depends" answer is the best one you can give :)<br /><br />Someone once told me that as we plan, the seekers shouldn't be something we worry about not because they don't matter, but because the experience they hunger for as people seeking can only be found within a community devoted to discipleship. A seeker comes expecting things to be different, not looking for the thing they're used to; they wouldn't be here if they wanted what they think they've always had ...Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17504548881017531837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-30889098933084894692011-04-25T17:40:17.657-07:002011-04-25T17:40:17.657-07:00(Continued from above..)
As for some of your othe...(Continued from above..)<br /><br />As for some of your other questions:<br /><br />“Do we assume that everyone has a deep theological understanding?” Of course not. But we also don’t assume everyone is an idiot. <br /><br />“To what level do we cater?” This is a good question, but perhaps there is a better way of asking it. This connotes that worship is directed toward people, but I think we would agree that our worship is God-oriented, a response to God’s self-revelation. <br /><br />N.T. Wright says: “…the word ‘worship’ means, literally, ‘worth-ship’: to accord worth, true value, to something, to recognize and respect it for the true worth it has.” Thus, worship is rooted in God’s glory and praise. He further writes: “Put it this way: if your idea of God, if your idea of the salvation offered in Christ, is vague or remote, your idea of worship will be fuzzy and ill-formed. The closer you get to the truth, the clearer becomes the beauty, and the more you will find worship welling up within you.”<br /><br />Instead of looking at the level we cater to, I believe we must first ask the primary question, What is the goal of worship? My answer to this question would be that our goal as worship leaders is to provide the opportunity to help people connect and respond to the beauty and glory of God. I think the level of the worshiper becomes irrelevant as the glory of God is revealed.<br /><br />I cannot write a formula for how this is explicitly done. It will look different in each context. The truth of the Gospel will be the same, but the “look” of worship (as in how it is executed) most likely will not, because, as you say, everyone comes with their own biases, perspectives, etc. As a church, we live and grow as a community. As a community, our worship takes a distinct nature as we respond to the beauty of the Triune God. We have to carefully consider what do these biases and perspectives influence and what do they not? Perhaps, for example, they influence our music and instrumentation, but they should never influence the content.<br /><br />You are correct, “meeting with God” sounds great on paper. We can theologically discuss what it means all day. But how does it look on a given Sunday? I can’t tell you. I can tell you how it looks for the community I am part of, but I can’t give a distinct definitive answer for every worshiping community as whole. I can tell you this – it will recite, reenact, and live out the glory of God. <br /><br />Blessings brother! <br /><br />- JonathanJonathan Powershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04156698508552110185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-91732721519036343242011-04-25T17:39:44.891-07:002011-04-25T17:39:44.891-07:00Hey Chris,
Thanks so much for your comments! You ...Hey Chris,<br /><br />Thanks so much for your comments! You raise some very important and insightful questions. I will offer some brief (and inadequate) answers. <br /><br />First of all, I would like to point out that this blog post was not meant to set forth a perfect worship plan, or a design for how to go about planning worship. This post is a feeble reflection of thoughts I am currently navigating through, based on a recent conversation, regarding one specific approach to worship planning. It is not a treatise on worship planning itself. Admittedly, I did not explicitly make this clear within the blog post. <br /><br />As for how I define worship, in the context of this conversation/post you are correct – I am looking at a corporate gathering, specifically around the cyclical weekly “event” as you say. Is this my definition of worship? No. <br /><br />(I certainly don't want to make you suffer through reading more of my blog, but I do believe some of these questions might be clarified in other posts.)<br /><br />Though style and art are touchy subjects to address, they are also extremely important ones. I have far too many thoughts on this, so I tell you what I will do – sometime in the near future I will write a post specifically discussing some of my thoughts regarding style and worship. <br /><br />For now, I’ll say that style is an important aspect of worship to consider, but probably not as important as the American church makes it out to be. Style will always be fluid because styles are always changing. We embrace style as it assists in the proclamation and celebration of the Gospel story. A proper mindset regarding style is that it helps make a connection in worship but it is not something used solely to appeal to people. (I’ll try to clarify these thoughts in the upcoming post and will appreciate your comments.)<br /><br />As for art, we need it more in the church. Various mediums of art are important in the proclamation of the Gospel, drawing people into worship, (i.e. icons as “windows” to heaven). Art also provides a place for the gifts and talents of the congregation to be put to use for God’s glory. Part of the personal interest we should be taking in others is discovering the gifts and talents they have that can be put to appropriate use in worship.Jonathan Powershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04156698508552110185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-71858139412495246452011-04-25T13:23:24.182-07:002011-04-25T13:23:24.182-07:00I guess my first question is more semantics: what ...I guess my first question is more semantics: what do we mean by "worship"? I would guess from the way you use the term - and correct me if I'm wrong, this is the first post of yours I've read - that your definition fits more into the "event"-oriented idea of worship, that it's a cyclical corporate gathering. My next question is, how do you propose we address questions of style, art, and the like in light of the points you raise? I like that you're encouraging a missional attitude from church-goers, but I guess I'm not seeing what you ARE proposing from the worship planning perspective; we're not choosing to plan around so-called "seekers", but what does that mean for what we actually DO? Do we assume everyone coming has a deep theological understanding? Because that's not my experience, and so to what "level" do we "cater"? Everyone comes to the gathering with something, some background, some mistaken perspective, some cultural bias ... and so my question ultimately is this: what does it look like? "Meeting God" sounds good on paper, but what does it actually look like on a given Sunday?Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17504548881017531837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-20109473588483635202011-03-23T10:05:23.326-07:002011-03-23T10:05:23.326-07:00I just picked the melody as an intro and ending an...I just picked the melody as an intro and ending and played some "hammered" suspensions in the chords to help imitate the Scottish style. I will see if I can tab it out for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1530741222852255049.post-27880306994823594462011-03-22T18:13:40.160-07:002011-03-22T18:13:40.160-07:00So true. That's one of the things I love about...So true. That's one of the things I love about these types of Charles' hymns - he's able to make it personal yet deeply scriptural. He finds his story within the greater narrative. Amazing.Jonathan Powershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04156698508552110185noreply@blogger.com